VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Confronting a rebel archbishop's accusations and acts of defiance was the heaviest cross St. Paul VI had to bear in his pontificate, said a 2018 book based on never-before published notes and documents.

After years of correspondence and efforts at convincing Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, to accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the authority of the pope, St. Paul lost his patience at times in a private meeting with the suspended cleric at the papal villa in Castel Gandolfo, Sept. 11, 1976.

"You said it and wrote it. (That) I would be a modernist pope. By applying an ecumenical council, I would betray the church. Do you understand that if this were so, I would have to resign and invite you to take my place and lead the church?" Pope Paul said, according to a top Vatican official's report of the proceedings.

The typed report and handwritten notes and letters of St. Paul are part of an Italian book published in 2018 titled, "The Barque of Paul," by Msgr. Leonardo Sapienza, regent of the Prefecture of the Pontifical Household. 

The book makes public more than two dozen handwritten or typed notes and letters by the pope, including a letter long-rumored to exist instructing the dean of the College of Cardinals to accept his resignation in case of infirmity.

But the most "dramatic are the documents on the matter of Lefebvre," said an article published May 2018 in the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano.

The book focused on the pope's comments and reactions in 1976-77 when the situation with Archbishop Lefebvre had reached a breaking point. 

At length, the pope condemned the false and "inconsistent" doctrine, and the grave and divisive actions of the archbishop during a secret consistory with cardinals May 24, 1976, the book said. The times, the pope told the cardinals, called not for concessions, but vigilance against all dangerous and incorrect interpretations of the Second Vatican Council.

Just a few months later, in July 1976, Archbishop Lefebvre was suspended from his priestly functions after he illegally ordained 13 priests at his seminary in Ecône, Switzerland. In an open violation of his suspension, he led a Mass at a sports arena in Lille, France, a month later before thousands of faithful and hundreds of journalists, who reported or broadcast his lengthy homily in which he defended the "traditional" faith and lambasted the "conciliar" church.

In the end, after direct correspondence, intermediaries and a number of public statements seemed to have failed to sway the archbishop, the pope met face-to-face with him Sept. 11 of that year. The pope's personal secretary also attended along with the assistant secretary of state, whom the pope charged with taking notes on the entire proceedings.

Written like a transcript, the report said Pope Paul began the conversation saying, "I hope to have before me a brother, a son, a friend. Unfortunately, the position you have taken is that of an antipope. What can I say? You have not allowed for any measure in your words, your actions, your behavior."

According to the 2018 book, St. Paul said the question at stake was not obedience to him as a person, but obedience to the office of pope.

"You judged the pope as disloyal to the faith of which he is the supreme guarantor. Perhaps this is the first time in history that this has happened. You told the whole world that the pope lacks the faith, does not believe, that he is a modernist and so on," St. Paul said, underlining the "extreme gravity" of such accusations, and the need to "reflect" and accept the "just consequences."

Archbishop Lefebvre insisted it was never his intention to attack the pope, and he admitted "perhaps there was something inappropriate in my words, my writings." His true intention, he said, was to follow his conscience and respond to the concerns of numerous others who were worried that the recent changes in the church forced them to either "risk losing the faith" or "give the impression of disobedience."

Referring to the archbishop's criticisms of secularization creeping into religious life and of laxity in the liturgy, the pope said the Vatican was working just as hard and insistently "at eliminating certain abuses that don't conform to the law of the church in force, which is (the law) of the council and of tradition."

What bothered the pope, he said, wasn't the archbishop's "perplexity" with what the council taught, but his attitude or approach to the council, which he had also taken part in.

"I am not against the council, but against some of its acts," Archbishop Lefebvre said.

"If you are not against the council, you must adhere to it, to all of its documents," the pope replied, remarking later that the archbishop had signed many of the council's acts. 

Archbishop Lefebvre proposed requiring bishops to make available in churches a chapel where people could "pray like before the council."

"We are a community. We cannot permit autonomy in behavior in different places," the pope said, but the archbishop continued to make the case that the council accepts "pluralism" and "we ask that that principle be applied to us, too." 

Archbishop Lefebvre added that he would let the Vatican oversee the Ecône seminary to ensure it was forming candidates in "true piety," and he said he would be ready to not speak at any more conferences, staying put in the seminary -- "I promise I won't come out anymore."

St. Paul questioned how this would be in communion with the church "when you take positions against us, before the world, to accuse us of infidelity, of wanting to destroy the church?"

"I had no intention...," Archbishop Lefebvre said. However, the pope added, that was what the archbishop had said and written and if he were such a modernist pope betraying the church, "I would have to resign and invite you to take my place and lead the church."

When the archbishop explained the church was in crisis, Pope Paul said, "We are suffering deeply. You contributed to making it worse with your solemn disobedience, with your open challenge against the pope."

"I am not being judged as I should," Archbishop Lefebvre replied. 

"Canon law judges you," the pope said, urging him to make an examination of conscience of the situation and ask God what to do.

St. Paul said he would reflect as well and pray, reiterating he had much esteem for the archbishop, knew of his merits and had common ground in recognizing there were "many problems" to deal with. 

He asked Archbishop Lefebvre to sign a public declaration, retracting his recent remarks and actions which "everyone took notice of as actions not to build the church but to divide it and bring it harm." 

"We have to find union in prayer and reflection," he said, ending the 30-minute meeting with prayers.

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A version of this story was originally published in 2018.

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ROME (CNS) -- Cardinal Robert W. McElroy of Washington said his decision to remove a high-profile priest as an archdiocesan exorcist was driven by the public way he exercised his ministry, not by his specific beliefs about UFOs.

Following comments on social media linking UFOs to demonic activity, Msgr. Stephen Rossetti was removed in early June as an exorcist for the Archdiocese of Washington. 

In one of his first interviews since the decision, Cardinal McElroy told Catholic News Service it should not be interpreted as a judgment on unidentified flying objects or extraterrestrial life, but in what he sees as the proper role of an exorcist within the Catholic Church.

"It wasn't touching on the question of UFOs," the cardinal said in an interview June 29 at the Pontifical North American College. "My major objection is that I think the traditional role of an exorcist is a very private one. It's a sacred one."

Msgr. Rossetti has built one of the largest online followings among Catholic exorcists through the St. Michael Center for Spiritual Renewal, with more than 146,000 followers on YouTube, as well as tens of thousands more on his personal Instagram, where he regularly discusses exorcism, spiritual warfare and demonic activity.

In May, Msgr. Rossetti posted online that "probably many, if not most, UFO sightings are in fact demons," drawing widespread attention as public interest in unidentified anomalous phenomena, or UAP -- the government's official term for what are commonly called UFOs -- has increased in recent years. 

On June 3, Cardinal McElroy said in a press release that "statements made by Msgr. Rossetti linking UFOs to demonic presence and the Center's recent use of social media gravely undermine the Church's very precise teaching on the devil, demons and exorcism."

The removal has since prompted widespread debate among Catholics over whether the action reflected the archdiocese's position on extraterrestrial life or on Msgr. Rossetti's assertion that many UFO sightings are demonic.

Some Catholics agree with Msgr. Rossetti's views. U.S. Vice President JD Vance has previously said, "I don't think they're aliens. I think they're demons anyway."

Others have argued on social media and in the press that the issue was more about presenting personal speculation as Church teaching. In an interview with The New York Times after Msgr. Rossetti's removal, Christopher Baglow, director of the Science and Religion Initiative at the McGrath Institute for Church Life, said Msgr. Rossetti may have overstepped by "putting forward his own doctrine as something Catholics should accept."

Cardinal McElroy told CNS that exorcists perform a ministry entrusted to them by their bishop in particularly "serious cases" and that the office should remain focused on that pastoral mission.

"I think the more traditional approach of an exorcist is a private, within-the-life-of-the-Church ministry to help individuals who are in crisis and seem to be demonically possessed," he said in the interview. "It shouldn't go beyond that for people who are doing exorcism."

The cardinal added that he believes exorcists should remain "more faithful to the traditional role the Church has had for exorcists." The webpage on exorcisms on the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops site says "the preservation of confidentiality is important."

Following his removal, Msgr. Rossetti issued a statement expressing sadness over the decision and asking forgiveness "for any ways in which I have failed to remain fully obedient to the Magisterium of the Church." He said the St. Michael Center for Spiritual Renewal would continue its ministry independently.

Debates about UFOs and whether they are tied to demons are not new to Catholics. Priests and theologians have argued for decades that the Church has no official teaching on extraterrestrial life. Some Catholic theologians have said the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is not incompatible with the faith. 

But a fresh wave of public interest in UFOs has continued to grow inside Catholic circles, driven by U.S. government disclosures on the subject and a string of recent films.

On July 7, filmmakers released the trailer for "Not of This World: Catholic Faith in the Age of Disclosure," a documentary series examining how Catholics are responding to UFO questions.

Produced by Catholic filmmaker Sam Sorich, the project features interviews with theologians, UFO researchers, national security officials, clergy and exorcists, prompted in part by claims from a former CIA official that the Vatican possesses evidence of nonhuman intelligence.

The documentary follows Catholic discussions of the issue, including a June private screening at Rome's Cinema Barberini of Steven Spielberg's film "Disclosure Day," organized by Sorich. Attendees included clergy, journalists and students from pontifical universities.

Among those attending was Michael Severance of the Acton Institute, who said the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life would not necessarily conflict with Catholic belief.

"I don't doubt that if there are intelligent or human-like forms in the universe that they also couldn't be made perfect or they couldn't fall or have the same destiny of salvation that we do," he said June 3.

Veteran Vatican journalist Delia Gallagher said the issue is likely to become increasingly important for Catholics.

"This is a topic that is destined to become more important," she said. "The Vatican will eventually -- it could be years -- have something more concrete to say about it."